Welcome back to Senior Savvy Cannabis. I’m
Catherine Goldberg. Today we’re lucky enough to be joined by Kirk Barry. I reached out to
Kirk after I saw a post that he made about THC being at 47%. We all kind of laugh about
THC inflation, but I didn’t realize that taxes are involved in THC percentage. So, I wanted
to get Mr. Barry on the podcast to explain: is this fraud? What exactly is happening?
And why is no one being held accountable? Good questions. A lot of questions all at once. Do
you want to start by telling us your background? Because cannabis fraud investigator is a new one
even for me. Yeah. Well, I have a heavy background in investigations. I was a law enforcement officer
for 21 years, and then I worked as a collision reconstruction expert in the civil litigation
field for another 25 years. I’ve testified in 350 jury trials and given my deposition 450-plus times
and worked on about 8,000 cases altogether. So, in about 2009 or so, I kind of transitioned over
into the cannabis space—really cannabis and hemp. What I’m looking at is basically document
fraud, fraud of any type. And really, I guess if we made a phrase out of it, it would be
consumer fraud and all of its many angles. Yeah. So then, to your question—one of the things that
we’re looking at here: what type of fraud is this when we find fraud, how do we find fraud, and
what is it? I think one of the most important places to focus on is the label information on
a product—really going to tell you a lot. That, coupled with testing results—and you’ve
probably heard this term knocked around, you’ve probably used it yourself a thousand
times—COA, which means Certificate of Analysis, which is the results that a laboratory gives their
customer based on the product that they brought in to have tested. And so, that’s our best bet
as consumers. I tell people the only chance you have at trying to figure out how a product
might make you feel is by looking at the COA. But are you saying that not all COAs are accurate?
Yeah, we have a real problem in these industries. Let’s chop it up into two industries: hemp
and cannabis. When we’re talking about the hemp industry—and mainly I’m talking about
vape devices, vape pens, vape cartridges, like THCA that’s sold online—yeah, all the vapes,
all the Delta 8, Delta 9. Exactly. Delta 8. Lots of people call them the D8 products, right? Or it
could be flower products, it could be pre-roll, but they all live in the hemp sector. They’re not
licensed cannabis businesses; they’re operating hemp businesses. In my testing, 91% of the
vape pens that I test are actually marijuana or cannabis; they’re not hemp at all.
Did you say 91%? Right. And for flower products, it’s 99%.
I know. It’s sad. So, are their machines broken? What is going on?
What they’re doing is defrauding their consumer. And it’s collusion—about half the
time it’s collusion and about half the time it’s sample fraud, where a business will create a
sample that they know is going to pass certain guidelines and restrictions, have that tested, but
then what’s in the package looks nothing like the COA. When I look at COAs, predominantly, almost
100% of the time the product that’s advertised on the box—it might say DN, HHC, THCO, Hydrox1,
whatever—on the hemp side of things, right? Yeah. We’re only talking—
Okay. And then let’s talk about hemp and then make sure we also talk
about cannabis, because that’s where— Absolutely. Great.
So, the information on the box is nothing like their Certificate of Analysis. I
think what the hemp sector does is they have boxes printed up somewhere, and then they have those
boxes with all kinds of advertising on them, and then they go out and they buy concentrates on the
spot market and they fill their vape pens. They put it on the shelf with a fake COA and they sell
it to you. I was just looking at The Hemp Doctor in North Carolina the other day. I pulled down
maybe 101 different COAs. I think all but five are fraud—all but five are document fraud, as in
totally made up, not bad results from a lab—just somebody cut and pasted a COA, and then The Hemp
Doctor puts it on their website to appease the consumer’s curiosity about hemp products.
So that’s one example—mind-blowing. And what’s happening on the legal cannabis
side? Because I also see there are all these Instagram accounts about the cannabis recalls
in California, and I feel like every day there’s another recall. So, is it just as bad on the
cannabis side? Because a lot of us are using it as medicine and we don’t want to be lied to, right?
And you want to be able to dose, right? I mean, if you’ve got a medical problem—maybe
you’re controlling pain or anxiety, or you want to sleep at night—so you go out and
you buy a product and you want the label to be correct because you’re puffing on something or
you’re taking a hit of something or eating half a gummy or whatever it happens to be, and you
want to try to control your dosage. You don’t want to get so high you can’t sleep, but you
want to be able to sleep or whatever have you. Of course.
Here’s what I think about the cannabis industry: I think overall about half of the cannabis
products are labeled incorrectly. And when I say that, I mean it might be potency—particularly
if it’s high-potency flower and vape and gummy kind of products—like the 46% THC flower
that you posted. And by the way, I did a blog post about that—you guys can read that if you
want to see. There was clearly a mathematical error, and it seemed like they were testing
at 40% THC, which is biologically impossible. So were they shoveling keef on top of the
flower and then testing that as a sample? No, because remember I tested it, and what
was it—28% or 27%? I mean, that’s fine, and a lot of flower lives in the 27% range. What
happens in these kinds of cases—when I look at that case with ACT Laboratories and, what was
it, a publicly traded company? It was in Chicago, right? Ascend Wellness, right? So, the first
mistake that’s made here is that these companies should know what the total THC formula is.
The first thing they don’t do is follow that; they just add things together—add numbers
together—and it comes up with a higher value than it could possibly be. Anyway, like you
said, it should be 40%, but the label says 46%. And then, like you said, Catherine, when you
look at flower products, there’s nothing in the 40% range. It all lives in the 16 to 25%
range. Maybe some’s in the high 20s. Maybe a few products are in the low 30s, but I’ve never tested
a product in the 40% range—and certainly not 46%. So what you have here—ACT Labs tests the
product at 40%? How do they get that number? Well, I’m not going to impugn ACT Laboratories
because I’m going to assume that ACT Laboratories is acting with integrity and they tested the
sample and this is what they got. Companies can create a fraudulent sample, right? Keef it like
you talked about, or spray it with distillate or something, so that you end up with a higher
THCA number than is physically possible on the plant. Then that sample goes to the lab. The
lab has a difficult, if not impossible, time determining that it’s adulterated. They only know
they get 40–45% THCA. And now what do you do? Do you issue the COA? Do you tell your client that
you’re going to issue it, but you’re going to mark it as adulterated? What goes on here? In this
particular case, I would say that Ascend Wellness has a real problem here. And I’m not going to
say that ACT Laboratories did anything wrong in this case, but this is an example of what’s
going on in the licensed cannabis industry. So there’s no consequence for this?
Yeah, there are consequences. Sure—there are companies that have already been
sued. They’re sued out of business or sued to the point where they might not make that
mistake again—class action lawsuits. California has already had three or four class action
lawsuits for potency issues on their label. Was that like against Jeeter
and Stiiizy? Some of those— Yeah.
Those brands that I tell my people to stay away from.
I don’t know if Stiiizy’s been sued yet. I think they’ve been sued, but I don’t know if it was
for potency or for pesticides or whatnot, but— Okay.
Yeah, I can’t think of that off the top. Okay. So, the class action lawsuit
is how the consumer fights back. Sure. Yeah. And I think it’s a worthy effort
and something to look into because with so many products mislabeled—because the label creates
a contract between the buyer and the seller. Just like when you go to the store and buy 2%
milk, it’s supposed to be 2%, not whole milk or water—it’s supposed to be what the label says.
Yeah. And so this is one of the ways that consumers can
help correct the cannabis industry—by working with an investigator like me and saying, “Hey, Kirk,
I bought this product. Will you test it for me, please?” And if it’s labeled incorrectly, then I
want to consider a class action lawsuit against the company. Those kinds of things, I think
over time, change the industry for the better. Thank you. I’m so thankful for the work that
you’re doing. And I know it’s going to take time, but it’s nice to not only complain about
something, but to offer up solutions. So, can you tell me about some of the class action
lawsuits that have already occurred and what the results were? I think the part that is
almost a little bit mind-blowing to me is that obviously cannabis is legal—like, we’ve
been doing this for 15 years—but it’s like, wait, we can stand up for ourselves? We’re
allowed to take a cannabis problem to the court? That’s almost miraculous to me—which
seems like a silly detail, but moving past that, what have those lawsuits been about? What have
they found? Can you just tell us about that? Yeah. I think they’re all still going through
the system, if you will. Class action lawsuits take years to resolve unless parties resolve
really, really early, but I think most of them have been about either potency or pesticides
or mold and mildew. And that’s exactly what class action litigation is for from a non-legal
perspective—this isn’t legal advice, obviously. When a consumer goes in and buys something
for $40 and they didn’t get what they were supposed to get, you can’t sue somebody for $40
necessarily. So you go a class action route, and somebody can be a representative of the
class and represent all the people that have made this purchase. Now you have a tool to cause,
if you will, the cannabis business—the defendant, assuming that the facts are correct—to say,
“Hey, I’m going to change the way I do business, and I want to make sure my labels are accurate.”
Listen, this isn’t difficult to do. When you get behind the curtain of the cannabis business and
the hemp business, here’s what you find: nobody’s doing any bench testing. And what I mean by nobody
is almost no one is doing any kind of in-line testing to see what they’re manufacturing and
how they need to adjust their processes so their labels are accurate. They just make a product,
send 20 of them off—20 pre-rolls—to the lab for testing. The lab gives them a COA, and they slap
that number on the 30,000 pre-rolls they just ran off the machine during a continuous batch or a
big batch event. That’s going to cause problems because you don’t know whether you’re controlling
your manufacturing process from start to finish. This wouldn’t occur in any other industry.
This is unheard of in any other industry. Quality control, quality assurance. Companies that
make foodstuffs, things we inhale, things we rub on our body, things we eat—they’re doing quality
assurance and quality control. They’re doing current Good Manufacturing Practices, exactly—so
that, among other reasons, the label matches the product inside of it. But there’s a huge pull for
some companies: consumers come in and want high THC levels, and if I can’t grow THC like that,
then I’m going to create a fraudulent product to send to the lab to get fraudulent results because
I want my top-shelf products. It’s a real problem. And thankfully, I think we’re almost
at this point where we’re getting back to basics—people are realizing that the high
THC trend is not what we’re chasing anymore, that we want lower THC, we want terpene profiles,
we want various cannabinoids. It’s funny because I remember at one point—I started with medical in
2012—there was a menu online and they broke down the price by the THC. From a psychological
perspective, as a consumer, first of all, it’s a weird purchasing mindset; it almost makes
me feel like I’m being penalized if I want a lower THC product because of the price. So I hope that
we’re moving away from this chase for high THC. Yeah, and I don’t know if we are or not. Back
before licensing in California—I was in the California scene—before licensing in California,
you had top-shelf bud, but it wasn’t tested. Based on how it looked, how it smelled, how sticky it
was, how tight the bud structure was—is it indoor, mixed light, outdoor, hoop house—what is
it? The best, as it was graded by whoever was doing the buying, went to the top shelf and
got the higher price. Then along comes testing, and now the industry goes, “Oh, well, now that
we can measure THC, that’s the way we’re going to determine what’s the best.” In terms of what
sells—it’s evolved a little bit. There are a lot of consumers out there that THC-shop: “Hey, I got
50 bucks to spend. I want the most THC I can get.” But here’s what I would suggest to people:
look, just stay away from anything that’s 30% or above—you’re probably not getting it anyway.
I’m with you. Buy the product that’s 21, 22, 23%, whatever.
Look at the terpene profile that you like. Don’t buy 40% bud, 50%. You’re missing the whole point
of cannabis-infused pre-rolls. You’re most likely not getting it anyway. I know what to go pick
off the shelf to have tested. It’s a problem. Two questions. One: almost weekly I get an email
from someone somewhere in America saying that they’re suspicious of their cannabis and they
are asking me for a lab recommendation to have it tested. I don’t know what to tell these
people. What would you tell these people? Have them call me. I’ll talk to them
and give them as much information as I possibly can. There are labs across the
country that I work with that I trust. Can a consumer walk into a lab
with a sample and say, “Hey, can I pay for this to be tested,” or do you need
a license to have it tested in the first place? No, no. There are many states where you can
have product tested, but the lab might say, “Why?” I mean, that’s reasonable. I test products
because I’m involved in lawsuits all over the country. I call up the lab; I make arrangements.
At this point I understand chain of custody, and we all know each other. I work hard at finding
accurate labs. There are some labs I won’t go within five miles of because I know what they do.
Are they being paid under the table? Is it— I don’t know. Customers are a big business
for labs. I’m not disparaging anyone. I’m just saying when you have a customer that wants
to bring you half a million dollars in testing a year—that’s a lot of money. I’ve talked to
lab directors—and I’m sure there are others you could have on the show—that would say,
“Here’s a normal course of business for me: cannabis representatives will walk in and
say, ‘I need my product tested, but if it can’t come back at 35% total THC, I’ll just take
my business somewhere else. So, don’t even bother to test it.'” This happens all day long.
Wow. That is not how science is done. Yeah. “I have a problem with pesticides. If
this can’t pass pesticides, then I don’t want to pay you $500 to have my pesticide
testing done. I’ll go somewhere else.” Wow. I had a friend many years ago who tried to
start a testing lab, and I remember her telling me that she couldn’t compete with the other guys.
She had integrity and she was a scientist, and she said, “I can’t—it’s not a business for me.” It’s
unfortunate to hear that. Is this a problem in every state where cannabis is legal? Is this an
American problem? Is this happening in Canada, Germany, Israel, Australia? Do you know?
I’ve talked to a few people on different continents.
Yeah. What do they say? They say the problem exists there too. I
would say it is a problem across America, and it’s an integrity problem—it’s a moral and
ethical problem. I’ve talked to some lab folks that have lost everything—millions of dollars
in the hole—because they won’t commit lab fraud. I’m thinking of a couple in California
right now. From a moral perspective, from a situational ethics perspective, if business after
business comes in and says, “Test my product, but this is what I need,” and you say, “No,
I won’t do that,” well, you’re closing your doors. You’re not going to be open for very long.
It takes a lot of courage to say, “I don’t care if I go bankrupt. I’m not going to commit fraud.”
I feel bad for the labs, frankly. I really do. What can the average consumer do? What can
the average senior do? Our purchasing power helps shape decisions. What can we do so that
we create an industry where this is a thing of the past—where people are like, “Remember those
ridiculous days where they were testing at 46% THC“? Does it need to go pharmaceutical? Does
it need to go corporate? What’s the balance? And my record, by the way, is 50%
on flower. That’s what I saw it advertised at, which is just crazy.
Like it’s testing THC at 50? No, it didn’t. It was advertised at 50% total THC.
The thing is, you laugh about it, but it’s not funny anymore.
Yeah. It was called Bruce Wayne—the strain name—out of Michigan.
Yeah. It’s pretty sad. Here’s what I would say: look, get involved.
If people don’t get involved with change, then nothing changes. The industry’s been going
on for all these years—cannabis was first legal in California in 1996, licensed in Colorado
in 2010, whatever it’s been—and look where we are today. Does it go corporate? I don’t know.
We started off the show with Ascend Wellness, a publicly traded company—46% total THC. That’s
not, to me, an argument for corporate coming in. I don’t think the pharmaceutical industry is
going to touch cannabis for the most part. I don’t know that they—it’s too small of an industry
for them when you stop and think about it. And then they’ve got the same problem that the whole
entire supply chain has: fraud. If you’re—pick a pharmacy—CVS Pharmacy. If you’re CVS
and you’re selling mislabeled products, you’re a huge target for plaintiff attorneys. I
don’t think CVS wants to be that kind of target. So this is what I say: look, find folks like me
out there that are focused on consumer fraud and make a difference—and maybe get your product
tested. “Hey, I had this problem; this is what happened to me when I bought this product,” and
let’s see how we can change an industry. Maybe you’re represented by an attorney, maybe not. But
I think it’s going to take a focused effort by the regulatory sector, the enforcement sector,
and, civilly, through lawsuits, to really turn this industry around and change things—because
so far they’re very, very slow to change. Now, having said that, there are some great operators
out there—absolutely. There are folks doing an amazing job. They care about the product in the
package. They care about accuracy. There are labs out there doing wonderful things and really
propping up this industry from an integrity perspective. Our problem is there’s still too
much consumer fraud going on, and it needs to be addressed by all these different folks to bring
everyone to being honest with the consumer—because here’s the bottom line: the cannabis business
is defrauding their own customers, right? And we’re not all potheads. We can take action
once something is wrong. I’m just so thankful that you’re telling us. I think a lot of people are
going to be shocked to hear this. And listen, the numbers I’ve thrown around—they’re not stuff I’ve
heard from someone else. I’m shelf-testing product across America. These are my results. This is
what I found. This is from me examining packaging, like I did for that Ascend Wellness product—banana
whatever it was. Yes. This is me doing the actual work and saying, “Look what we’re finding out
there on the streets at the retail level.” Well, as you continue finding stuff, tell me—I’ll
publish it. We can team up, share it together, have it go viral. Hopefully this was just the
beginning of many more conversations. This was absolutely fascinating, and thank you so much
for your time, Kirk. I really appreciate it, and thank you for everything you’re doing.
Yeah, you’re welcome, Catherine. And thank you for everything you’re doing—getting
the word out to people. That is the most important thing. If people don’t know, what do
you do? If you don’t know what you don’t know, right? Exactly. You’re helping—you’re educating
the seniors in this case, whoever it is out there. I happen to be one of those. And you’re
doing a great thing. So thanks a lot.
Catherine Goldberg. Today we’re lucky enough to be joined by Kirk Barry. I reached out to
Kirk after I saw a post that he made about THC being at 47%. We all kind of laugh about
THC inflation, but I didn’t realize that taxes are involved in THC percentage. So, I wanted
to get Mr. Barry on the podcast to explain: is this fraud? What exactly is happening?
And why is no one being held accountable? Good questions. A lot of questions all at once. Do
you want to start by telling us your background? Because cannabis fraud investigator is a new one
even for me. Yeah. Well, I have a heavy background in investigations. I was a law enforcement officer
for 21 years, and then I worked as a collision reconstruction expert in the civil litigation
field for another 25 years. I’ve testified in 350 jury trials and given my deposition 450-plus times
and worked on about 8,000 cases altogether. So, in about 2009 or so, I kind of transitioned over
into the cannabis space—really cannabis and hemp. What I’m looking at is basically document
fraud, fraud of any type. And really, I guess if we made a phrase out of it, it would be
consumer fraud and all of its many angles. Yeah. So then, to your question—one of the things that
we’re looking at here: what type of fraud is this when we find fraud, how do we find fraud, and
what is it? I think one of the most important places to focus on is the label information on
a product—really going to tell you a lot. That, coupled with testing results—and you’ve
probably heard this term knocked around, you’ve probably used it yourself a thousand
times—COA, which means Certificate of Analysis, which is the results that a laboratory gives their
customer based on the product that they brought in to have tested. And so, that’s our best bet
as consumers. I tell people the only chance you have at trying to figure out how a product
might make you feel is by looking at the COA. But are you saying that not all COAs are accurate?
Yeah, we have a real problem in these industries. Let’s chop it up into two industries: hemp
and cannabis. When we’re talking about the hemp industry—and mainly I’m talking about
vape devices, vape pens, vape cartridges, like THCA that’s sold online—yeah, all the vapes,
all the Delta 8, Delta 9. Exactly. Delta 8. Lots of people call them the D8 products, right? Or it
could be flower products, it could be pre-roll, but they all live in the hemp sector. They’re not
licensed cannabis businesses; they’re operating hemp businesses. In my testing, 91% of the
vape pens that I test are actually marijuana or cannabis; they’re not hemp at all.
Did you say 91%? Right. And for flower products, it’s 99%.
I know. It’s sad. So, are their machines broken? What is going on?
What they’re doing is defrauding their consumer. And it’s collusion—about half the
time it’s collusion and about half the time it’s sample fraud, where a business will create a
sample that they know is going to pass certain guidelines and restrictions, have that tested, but
then what’s in the package looks nothing like the COA. When I look at COAs, predominantly, almost
100% of the time the product that’s advertised on the box—it might say DN, HHC, THCO, Hydrox1,
whatever—on the hemp side of things, right? Yeah. We’re only talking—
Okay. And then let’s talk about hemp and then make sure we also talk
about cannabis, because that’s where— Absolutely. Great.
So, the information on the box is nothing like their Certificate of Analysis. I
think what the hemp sector does is they have boxes printed up somewhere, and then they have those
boxes with all kinds of advertising on them, and then they go out and they buy concentrates on the
spot market and they fill their vape pens. They put it on the shelf with a fake COA and they sell
it to you. I was just looking at The Hemp Doctor in North Carolina the other day. I pulled down
maybe 101 different COAs. I think all but five are fraud—all but five are document fraud, as in
totally made up, not bad results from a lab—just somebody cut and pasted a COA, and then The Hemp
Doctor puts it on their website to appease the consumer’s curiosity about hemp products.
So that’s one example—mind-blowing. And what’s happening on the legal cannabis
side? Because I also see there are all these Instagram accounts about the cannabis recalls
in California, and I feel like every day there’s another recall. So, is it just as bad on the
cannabis side? Because a lot of us are using it as medicine and we don’t want to be lied to, right?
And you want to be able to dose, right? I mean, if you’ve got a medical problem—maybe
you’re controlling pain or anxiety, or you want to sleep at night—so you go out and
you buy a product and you want the label to be correct because you’re puffing on something or
you’re taking a hit of something or eating half a gummy or whatever it happens to be, and you
want to try to control your dosage. You don’t want to get so high you can’t sleep, but you
want to be able to sleep or whatever have you. Of course.
Here’s what I think about the cannabis industry: I think overall about half of the cannabis
products are labeled incorrectly. And when I say that, I mean it might be potency—particularly
if it’s high-potency flower and vape and gummy kind of products—like the 46% THC flower
that you posted. And by the way, I did a blog post about that—you guys can read that if you
want to see. There was clearly a mathematical error, and it seemed like they were testing
at 40% THC, which is biologically impossible. So were they shoveling keef on top of the
flower and then testing that as a sample? No, because remember I tested it, and what
was it—28% or 27%? I mean, that’s fine, and a lot of flower lives in the 27% range. What
happens in these kinds of cases—when I look at that case with ACT Laboratories and, what was
it, a publicly traded company? It was in Chicago, right? Ascend Wellness, right? So, the first
mistake that’s made here is that these companies should know what the total THC formula is.
The first thing they don’t do is follow that; they just add things together—add numbers
together—and it comes up with a higher value than it could possibly be. Anyway, like you
said, it should be 40%, but the label says 46%. And then, like you said, Catherine, when you
look at flower products, there’s nothing in the 40% range. It all lives in the 16 to 25%
range. Maybe some’s in the high 20s. Maybe a few products are in the low 30s, but I’ve never tested
a product in the 40% range—and certainly not 46%. So what you have here—ACT Labs tests the
product at 40%? How do they get that number? Well, I’m not going to impugn ACT Laboratories
because I’m going to assume that ACT Laboratories is acting with integrity and they tested the
sample and this is what they got. Companies can create a fraudulent sample, right? Keef it like
you talked about, or spray it with distillate or something, so that you end up with a higher
THCA number than is physically possible on the plant. Then that sample goes to the lab. The
lab has a difficult, if not impossible, time determining that it’s adulterated. They only know
they get 40–45% THCA. And now what do you do? Do you issue the COA? Do you tell your client that
you’re going to issue it, but you’re going to mark it as adulterated? What goes on here? In this
particular case, I would say that Ascend Wellness has a real problem here. And I’m not going to
say that ACT Laboratories did anything wrong in this case, but this is an example of what’s
going on in the licensed cannabis industry. So there’s no consequence for this?
Yeah, there are consequences. Sure—there are companies that have already been
sued. They’re sued out of business or sued to the point where they might not make that
mistake again—class action lawsuits. California has already had three or four class action
lawsuits for potency issues on their label. Was that like against Jeeter
and Stiiizy? Some of those— Yeah.
Those brands that I tell my people to stay away from.
I don’t know if Stiiizy’s been sued yet. I think they’ve been sued, but I don’t know if it was
for potency or for pesticides or whatnot, but— Okay.
Yeah, I can’t think of that off the top. Okay. So, the class action lawsuit
is how the consumer fights back. Sure. Yeah. And I think it’s a worthy effort
and something to look into because with so many products mislabeled—because the label creates
a contract between the buyer and the seller. Just like when you go to the store and buy 2%
milk, it’s supposed to be 2%, not whole milk or water—it’s supposed to be what the label says.
Yeah. And so this is one of the ways that consumers can
help correct the cannabis industry—by working with an investigator like me and saying, “Hey, Kirk,
I bought this product. Will you test it for me, please?” And if it’s labeled incorrectly, then I
want to consider a class action lawsuit against the company. Those kinds of things, I think
over time, change the industry for the better. Thank you. I’m so thankful for the work that
you’re doing. And I know it’s going to take time, but it’s nice to not only complain about
something, but to offer up solutions. So, can you tell me about some of the class action
lawsuits that have already occurred and what the results were? I think the part that is
almost a little bit mind-blowing to me is that obviously cannabis is legal—like, we’ve
been doing this for 15 years—but it’s like, wait, we can stand up for ourselves? We’re
allowed to take a cannabis problem to the court? That’s almost miraculous to me—which
seems like a silly detail, but moving past that, what have those lawsuits been about? What have
they found? Can you just tell us about that? Yeah. I think they’re all still going through
the system, if you will. Class action lawsuits take years to resolve unless parties resolve
really, really early, but I think most of them have been about either potency or pesticides
or mold and mildew. And that’s exactly what class action litigation is for from a non-legal
perspective—this isn’t legal advice, obviously. When a consumer goes in and buys something
for $40 and they didn’t get what they were supposed to get, you can’t sue somebody for $40
necessarily. So you go a class action route, and somebody can be a representative of the
class and represent all the people that have made this purchase. Now you have a tool to cause,
if you will, the cannabis business—the defendant, assuming that the facts are correct—to say,
“Hey, I’m going to change the way I do business, and I want to make sure my labels are accurate.”
Listen, this isn’t difficult to do. When you get behind the curtain of the cannabis business and
the hemp business, here’s what you find: nobody’s doing any bench testing. And what I mean by nobody
is almost no one is doing any kind of in-line testing to see what they’re manufacturing and
how they need to adjust their processes so their labels are accurate. They just make a product,
send 20 of them off—20 pre-rolls—to the lab for testing. The lab gives them a COA, and they slap
that number on the 30,000 pre-rolls they just ran off the machine during a continuous batch or a
big batch event. That’s going to cause problems because you don’t know whether you’re controlling
your manufacturing process from start to finish. This wouldn’t occur in any other industry.
This is unheard of in any other industry. Quality control, quality assurance. Companies that
make foodstuffs, things we inhale, things we rub on our body, things we eat—they’re doing quality
assurance and quality control. They’re doing current Good Manufacturing Practices, exactly—so
that, among other reasons, the label matches the product inside of it. But there’s a huge pull for
some companies: consumers come in and want high THC levels, and if I can’t grow THC like that,
then I’m going to create a fraudulent product to send to the lab to get fraudulent results because
I want my top-shelf products. It’s a real problem. And thankfully, I think we’re almost
at this point where we’re getting back to basics—people are realizing that the high
THC trend is not what we’re chasing anymore, that we want lower THC, we want terpene profiles,
we want various cannabinoids. It’s funny because I remember at one point—I started with medical in
2012—there was a menu online and they broke down the price by the THC. From a psychological
perspective, as a consumer, first of all, it’s a weird purchasing mindset; it almost makes
me feel like I’m being penalized if I want a lower THC product because of the price. So I hope that
we’re moving away from this chase for high THC. Yeah, and I don’t know if we are or not. Back
before licensing in California—I was in the California scene—before licensing in California,
you had top-shelf bud, but it wasn’t tested. Based on how it looked, how it smelled, how sticky it
was, how tight the bud structure was—is it indoor, mixed light, outdoor, hoop house—what is
it? The best, as it was graded by whoever was doing the buying, went to the top shelf and
got the higher price. Then along comes testing, and now the industry goes, “Oh, well, now that
we can measure THC, that’s the way we’re going to determine what’s the best.” In terms of what
sells—it’s evolved a little bit. There are a lot of consumers out there that THC-shop: “Hey, I got
50 bucks to spend. I want the most THC I can get.” But here’s what I would suggest to people:
look, just stay away from anything that’s 30% or above—you’re probably not getting it anyway.
I’m with you. Buy the product that’s 21, 22, 23%, whatever.
Look at the terpene profile that you like. Don’t buy 40% bud, 50%. You’re missing the whole point
of cannabis-infused pre-rolls. You’re most likely not getting it anyway. I know what to go pick
off the shelf to have tested. It’s a problem. Two questions. One: almost weekly I get an email
from someone somewhere in America saying that they’re suspicious of their cannabis and they
are asking me for a lab recommendation to have it tested. I don’t know what to tell these
people. What would you tell these people? Have them call me. I’ll talk to them
and give them as much information as I possibly can. There are labs across the
country that I work with that I trust. Can a consumer walk into a lab
with a sample and say, “Hey, can I pay for this to be tested,” or do you need
a license to have it tested in the first place? No, no. There are many states where you can
have product tested, but the lab might say, “Why?” I mean, that’s reasonable. I test products
because I’m involved in lawsuits all over the country. I call up the lab; I make arrangements.
At this point I understand chain of custody, and we all know each other. I work hard at finding
accurate labs. There are some labs I won’t go within five miles of because I know what they do.
Are they being paid under the table? Is it— I don’t know. Customers are a big business
for labs. I’m not disparaging anyone. I’m just saying when you have a customer that wants
to bring you half a million dollars in testing a year—that’s a lot of money. I’ve talked to
lab directors—and I’m sure there are others you could have on the show—that would say,
“Here’s a normal course of business for me: cannabis representatives will walk in and
say, ‘I need my product tested, but if it can’t come back at 35% total THC, I’ll just take
my business somewhere else. So, don’t even bother to test it.'” This happens all day long.
Wow. That is not how science is done. Yeah. “I have a problem with pesticides. If
this can’t pass pesticides, then I don’t want to pay you $500 to have my pesticide
testing done. I’ll go somewhere else.” Wow. I had a friend many years ago who tried to
start a testing lab, and I remember her telling me that she couldn’t compete with the other guys.
She had integrity and she was a scientist, and she said, “I can’t—it’s not a business for me.” It’s
unfortunate to hear that. Is this a problem in every state where cannabis is legal? Is this an
American problem? Is this happening in Canada, Germany, Israel, Australia? Do you know?
I’ve talked to a few people on different continents.
Yeah. What do they say? They say the problem exists there too. I
would say it is a problem across America, and it’s an integrity problem—it’s a moral and
ethical problem. I’ve talked to some lab folks that have lost everything—millions of dollars
in the hole—because they won’t commit lab fraud. I’m thinking of a couple in California
right now. From a moral perspective, from a situational ethics perspective, if business after
business comes in and says, “Test my product, but this is what I need,” and you say, “No,
I won’t do that,” well, you’re closing your doors. You’re not going to be open for very long.
It takes a lot of courage to say, “I don’t care if I go bankrupt. I’m not going to commit fraud.”
I feel bad for the labs, frankly. I really do. What can the average consumer do? What can
the average senior do? Our purchasing power helps shape decisions. What can we do so that
we create an industry where this is a thing of the past—where people are like, “Remember those
ridiculous days where they were testing at 46% THC“? Does it need to go pharmaceutical? Does
it need to go corporate? What’s the balance? And my record, by the way, is 50%
on flower. That’s what I saw it advertised at, which is just crazy.
Like it’s testing THC at 50? No, it didn’t. It was advertised at 50% total THC.
The thing is, you laugh about it, but it’s not funny anymore.
Yeah. It was called Bruce Wayne—the strain name—out of Michigan.
Yeah. It’s pretty sad. Here’s what I would say: look, get involved.
If people don’t get involved with change, then nothing changes. The industry’s been going
on for all these years—cannabis was first legal in California in 1996, licensed in Colorado
in 2010, whatever it’s been—and look where we are today. Does it go corporate? I don’t know.
We started off the show with Ascend Wellness, a publicly traded company—46% total THC. That’s
not, to me, an argument for corporate coming in. I don’t think the pharmaceutical industry is
going to touch cannabis for the most part. I don’t know that they—it’s too small of an industry
for them when you stop and think about it. And then they’ve got the same problem that the whole
entire supply chain has: fraud. If you’re—pick a pharmacy—CVS Pharmacy. If you’re CVS
and you’re selling mislabeled products, you’re a huge target for plaintiff attorneys. I
don’t think CVS wants to be that kind of target. So this is what I say: look, find folks like me
out there that are focused on consumer fraud and make a difference—and maybe get your product
tested. “Hey, I had this problem; this is what happened to me when I bought this product,” and
let’s see how we can change an industry. Maybe you’re represented by an attorney, maybe not. But
I think it’s going to take a focused effort by the regulatory sector, the enforcement sector,
and, civilly, through lawsuits, to really turn this industry around and change things—because
so far they’re very, very slow to change. Now, having said that, there are some great operators
out there—absolutely. There are folks doing an amazing job. They care about the product in the
package. They care about accuracy. There are labs out there doing wonderful things and really
propping up this industry from an integrity perspective. Our problem is there’s still too
much consumer fraud going on, and it needs to be addressed by all these different folks to bring
everyone to being honest with the consumer—because here’s the bottom line: the cannabis business
is defrauding their own customers, right? And we’re not all potheads. We can take action
once something is wrong. I’m just so thankful that you’re telling us. I think a lot of people are
going to be shocked to hear this. And listen, the numbers I’ve thrown around—they’re not stuff I’ve
heard from someone else. I’m shelf-testing product across America. These are my results. This is
what I found. This is from me examining packaging, like I did for that Ascend Wellness product—banana
whatever it was. Yes. This is me doing the actual work and saying, “Look what we’re finding out
there on the streets at the retail level.” Well, as you continue finding stuff, tell me—I’ll
publish it. We can team up, share it together, have it go viral. Hopefully this was just the
beginning of many more conversations. This was absolutely fascinating, and thank you so much
for your time, Kirk. I really appreciate it, and thank you for everything you’re doing.
Yeah, you’re welcome, Catherine. And thank you for everything you’re doing—getting
the word out to people. That is the most important thing. If people don’t know, what do
you do? If you don’t know what you don’t know, right? Exactly. You’re helping—you’re educating
the seniors in this case, whoever it is out there. I happen to be one of those. And you’re
doing a great thing. So thanks a lot.
Video Tags: cannabis lab fraud,fake potency cannabis,fake COA cannabis,THC inflation,cannabis potency scandal,cannabis testing labs,cannabis safety,is my weed fake,why is THC so high,cannabis certificate of analysis,cannabis class action lawsuit,cannabis mislabeled products,cannabinoids explained,cannabis consumer education,dispensary weed quality,why weed is worse now,weed testing labs explained,cannabis potency testing,fake THC percentages,how to spot fake cannabis
Video Duration: 00:27:27
