I can’t believe how far the debate has come where I was at a debate in in the University of Denver where I was teaching at the time Mitt Romney was was debating for the president when he was running years ago and somebody from the Cannabis which was The Denver Post cannabis publication at the time said Mr Romney what do you plan to do about cannabis reform and he looked at him and scoffed and said ask me a real question he didn’t say that but that was the tone of it you can’t do that today you’ve got look what Harris did even Trump came out and and and took a formal position you can’t Dodge the issue anymore welcome to the kast the podcast for cannabis businesses looking to launch grow and scale their operations Bob thank you so much for joining us today oh it’s my pleasure I’m I’m happy to be here Tommy thanks for having me and happy New Year to you Happy New Years I spent considerable time looking into your background and Diving into some of the conversations that you had previously but for everyone listening can you can you tell everybody uh what your background is yeah yeah certainly I was one of the first if not the first cannabis lawyer some people call me the can sigli a I I’ve been in the space for the better part of the last 16 17 years in the commercial regulated cannabis space Built My Own Law Firm the hob and Law Group I’ve taught I’ve worked around the world I’ve drafted policy for over 35 countries I currently I stepped away from practicing law back in March full-time I still affiliated with Clark Hill I still help out and advise there but I don’t service clients and I no longer practice law right these days I find myself Consulting with governments around the world as I’ve done for like I said the best past 10 or 12 years writing laws advising on cannabis policy and I work as a fractional executive in some Global cannabis supply chain companies one in particular out of Morocco so that is that’s where I find my myself spending time these days and also proud to say that I begin teaching this semester at UNLV in its brand new first of a-kind cannabis policy Institute which is which is up and running and lots of exciting things to come out of there wow so this institute where in the Cannabis industry or what aspect of the Cannabis industry is this institute specializing in so cannabis policy right now here’s the thing when we talk about cannabis policy some people think of the Cannabis industry as the dispensary system right and to a certain extent when you’re talking about cannabis policy people get caught up in that lane this must mean regulations and laws at the state level that facilitate licensing for cultivations manufacturers and dispensaries right retail but as I want to say I believe that’s just one aisle in the Cannabis grocery store the dispensary system that’s only one to answer answer your question in the most long-winded way possible it’s their perspective has been all right let’s talk about cannabis regulation meaning marijuana dispensary regulation State efficiencies what are standardized issues we were looking for example at is the just posted on this today on a couple of the social media sites is the Las Vegas Strip and that those businesses losing out are they losing out on money because they don’t allow delivery to the resorts uh on the Strip the casinos and they facilitated a policy discussion about that particular topic as an example so that’s really been the core Focus but part of my job is because I’ve been teaching at I taught at University of Denver Rowan o College University of Vermont uh Hofstra and now that UNLV it’s an interesting perspective to me to say look it’s not just dispensaries and regulations it’s so much broader than that especially when you throw the UN un into the mix and what’s happening at our our federal level so yes let’s start they start with a focus on the regulatory system that involves dispensaries but my hope and goal and my role is to expand that discussion to the entire cannabis grocery store so to speak wow your so I’m talking the right person maybe not we’ll find out about your knees deep in policies regulations in the US where do you see us headed in 2025 and Beyond it’s a great question I think what where we are right now is it’s taken the better part of the last 18 months for people to get their head around the fact that hemp derivatives are here to stay including but not limited to intoxicating or or psychoactive hemp derivatives such as Delta 8 Delta 9 so forth and so on so you’ve got a brand new Administration being sworn in about 10 days or so here you’ve got a policy the 2018 farm bill which was signed by soon to be and former president Trump and they take credit for creating a 23 billion do hemp derivative industry on top of that we’ve got a 30 plus or minus billion dollar dispensary industry then we’ve got pharmaceutical layered on top you’ve got medical marijuana layered on top you’ve got International laid on top you’ve got schedule three movement of foot it’s a really exciting time for cannabis and where I see things going and why I started with with hemp I don’t have a dog in this fight I’m an observer I serviced clients in both sectors I was always about 50/50 in terms of hemp and marijuana clients over the last 15 18 years of my legal practice but it’s an interesting thing to see that in effect that the Republicans have created this concept of red state weed you’re not going to see dispensaries as we see it and know it in many of these red States at least anytime soon and that created the opportunity to produce these intoxicating hemp derivatives which are in the marketplace which yes there’s Bad actors in every sector but let’s make no mistake about it these things are safe and pure and there are government standards by which they’re produced if the actors are doing it right so I see that becoming a major focal point of where things go I see the scheduling or the rescheduling moving forward at the federal level that presents some challenging in things in and of itself for operators it does free up 280e the tax implications for these marijuana licenses and by the way I don’t mean to offend when I use the word marijuana I’m a technical nerd the industry in my mind is the Cannabis industry and you’ve got hemp and marijuana the legally defined technical terms so if I say marijuana it’s not because I don’t know that people don’t like to use that word it’s not because I’m trying to be offensive it’s just that’s the right term and frankly when people say cannabis and hemp it drives me nuts because there’s no such thing it’s all cannabis my point being is I see things moving in a in a very positive way for the Cannabis industry overall both sectors included and I also see major International opportunities now if you throw into the mix the fact that RFK Jr at least based on this morning’s reports does appear to have enough votes to get confirmed as the head of HHS which is the parent Agency for our FDA uh which of course oversees things that are ingested by humans um and he’s taken prominent public positions previously uh about access to a wide variety of plant-based medicines not the least of which is scheduling and rescheduling marijuana my point being I see things moving in that direction where the crossroads is really going to be is the the pragmatic Crossroads where does schedule 3 and the farm bill intersect and how can the stakeholders on both sides of that equation come to an understanding that they have to exist at the same time they have to coexist because there’s no chance that you’re going to take policy-wise marijuana dispensaries and put them out of the mix and there’s no chance you’re going to take hemp derivatives and get rid of them that’s a major side but the interesting thing is that’s on the private sector side the policy side the policy makers appear ready to go as it relates to these policy changes and Paving the path for more commercial successes and I also don’t take a position on politics necessary neily I’m fairly agnostic as it relates to RS versus D’s Republicans and Democrats but I do have to say that whether it’s real or not the Republicans have seized and continue to seize this mantle of being a party of Common Sense business give people opportunities and not to malign the Democrats but we just haven’t seen that out of them in in recent years so I think that bodess well for our industry where do you see the cannabis indust industry heading in 2025 from a regulations perspective I think it needs to loosen up a little bit and I mean in terms of Regulation first of all I think operators in that space need to realize they do have to play on both sides it’s an absolute necessity why wait for changes instead of availing yourself to follow consumer Behavior consumers want these products so you have to be able to play on both sides secondly instead of advocating to eliminate competition I.E the hemp sector why not add advocate for sensible regulations and the hemp sector would go to bat for you on those regulations to loosen it create more sales Outlets instead of saying I’m angry that a hemp derivative can be sold in a convenience store why to advocate for what I call the Circle K model or the cookies Corner model I don’t know if you remember a few years ago Circle K come out and said in Florida Circle K the convenience store chain they came out and said in Florida we’re going to look for putting marijuana dispensation systems in place of course the regulation don’t allow for that in Florida right now but the idea would be that you’re you have major interest that would like to see marijana products sold in more outlets and you need to reduce the tax burden on the consumer and the operator the cost of compliance is over the top now it was the original deal that we I was part of that made as an industry 10 12 sometimes 15 years ago depending on where you are to say Let Us sell these products we’ll pay as many taxes as you want we’ll comply with as many rules as you want and that was the original deal but that deal needs to be renegotiated towards a more flexible model and we have to stop thinking that dispensaries are the end all Beall people don’t like going to dispensaries your average person does not want to go to a dispensary they might go to a dispensary with their son daughter friend otherwise as an experience but they don’t like that experience on the regular basis so we have to stop thinking that we’re going to shove everything into dispensaries let’s go the other direction let’s loosen things up reduce taxes and allow these companies to sell more products to more people in more places and that’s a common sense unified plant approach from a policy perspective that I think can work it’s just nobody’s talking about it because it’s a zero sum game we’re going to eliminate the hemp industry we saw how that worked in Florida we saw how the opposite side of eliminating the hemp industry is let’s create monopolies in the individual states under the licensing we saw how that worked in Florida with true Le’s initiative there that failed too and that was a high standard and I give everybody credit for doing it and it still speaks volumes getting 50 some odd percent not the 60% of the vote that people want this but it’s just not there yet so you have to look at a whole plan solution now the one thing I would note this is where things get a little bit complicated if we’re advocating for schedule 3 and we’re saying schedule 3 is going to change the landscape what does schedule 3 do Tommy it creates a supply chain standard and a dispensation standard that has to be medicinal based meaning you have to produce these compounds to a medicinal standard you have to sell medicine to patients it effectively guts any adult you system if that state system wants to be compliant with a federal standard so if you go back to a medical standard many of the states had had medical marijuana programs before they went in adult use some states like Colorado we still have both side by side some stores can be both some have eliminated in like Washington where they just went over the- counter sales my my whole point is that if it goes to schedule 3 you have to go back to a medical marijuana framework that’s not something that people are excited about but if you did do it with a severe pain catchall as one of the qualifying conditions it becomes a quasi adult use system and guess what also happens you’re not paying the 20 30% % syn tax on adult use you’re paying regular sales tax on medicinal items if any sales tax at all is applied so that solves a problem it complies with federal government uh regulation it solves a tax problem and it solves the 280e problem but I don’t hear people talking about it because it’s too scary to say we have to eliminate adult use and go back adult use requires descheduling not rescheduling and guess what the only thing that’s descheduled is that’s hemp and hemp derivatives dare I say our hemp derivatives we’ve seen alcohol companies go all in on on beverages with lowd dose 2 4 5 7 mgram THC beverages is that the new adult use hemp arrived might be you know how can our listeners be a part of this change or be a part of of the solution what do you recommend it’s a great it’s a really great question I think that to have a dialogue in public forums is one thing that the marijuana industry is pretty tight cannabis industry is pretty tight and and pretty they show up in Most states based on my experience whether you’re operators or not the Enthusiast the culturalist everybody in a sense uh participates but they don’t always see eye to eye and that’s a bit of a challenge but here’s the thing at the end of the day we need to stop imposing our personal values just because I don’t want a Delta eight product and I’m not saying I don’t I’m just saying let’s say I don’t I don’t want it I’m a purist I just want flour I just use joints then what about the the the dab Guy The Joint and the dab guy are not the same people they’re not not even close and then the then you’ve got the the extracts guy then you’ve got the converted compounds guy my my point is follow consumer preferences and demands consumers will tell you what they want the industry to be we need to stop imposing our little sector of the world on this imagine if I was a craft beer snob 25 years ago and I didn’t have all the outlets that I have now and I just sat there the whole time and saying we have to get rid of paps blue ribbon and Budweiser because it’s not craft brew guess what that’s beer to 75% of the population maybe 20% of us or whatever the numbers are it’s smaller that like craft bruise it’s the same thing if I’m a flower guy I like my flower if I’m a dab guy I want my dab but that doesn’t mean dabs are the industry or flowers are the industry or that those people should say this is how the industry should be it has to be based on the aggregate of what consumers want and I don’t think the industry’s ever done a very good job of following consumer Behavior to lead in product development sales and policy you’ve been in this industry in so many different roles for such a long time if you were to start a business in this industry today what would you start ingredients canabo this is going to make people roll over as well canabo Tommy they’re merely ingredients cannabinoids are merely ingredients and if you look at it from that perspective that’s what see the most successful cannabis companies in the country maybe even in the world if you look at real numbers uh are not necessarily msos there are companies that are producing cannabinoids isolated pure very pure scientifically sound cannabinoids and they’re selling them to all sectors of the industry if I’m a cannaboid producer that produces Delta 9 maybe let’s call it a bioidentical Delta 9 all sectors of the industry are using it right now whether or not the regulations allow it because economics dictate so my point is I would be in the ingredient supply side I would also look at the international marketplace there’s a movement of foot internationally that has seen a supply chain develop and it’s responding to the very same consumer demands that we see in the US it’s just a little bit more finicky because you’ve got history and very diverse and distinct cultural positions and perspectives country by country in Europe and in Southeast Asia and South America and Latin America places like that so people look at it very differently so I would look at supply chain participation and maybe being an ingredient supplier and supply chain participation globally are not mutually exclusive but that’s where I would uh put my time and and and money and to a certain extent after I sto prac ractice in law in in March I focused on entering I I said what do I really want to do I want to actually play in this sandbox that I helped create over the last 15 16 years instead of just servicing people and I thought long and hard about it and I thought that the the THC beverages the hemp beverage sector was the place but I also thought thought that was a little too narrow when I started to examine the Cannabis supply chain from an international perspective and cannaboids as ingredients that to me is the fastest growing sector and it’s the most impressive sector and that’s why now I I work in you know if I had to ask you what’s the largest canis producing nation in the world I don’t know if you’d answer Morocco but it is and it has been for a very long time so you’re looking at a a place where it’s a kingdom it’s a a a burgeoning location they’re hosting the World Cup in 2030 you’re talking about 56,000 hectares there’s about 2 and2 acres for every hectare of ual cannabis production and that market those trade routes already exist with some coaxing this might be the first place in the world where we’ve actually seen the illicit Market transfer over to the commercial Market we saw it fail in California we saw it fail just about everywhere because of pricing and Taxation I think Morocco has a chance to change change that narrative and when it does that’s data we go to the United Nations with and then it’s game over because nobody can deny re reforming cannabis policy on a global scale when you can see that you eliminate basically people that are outcasts of society that are not included within culture that are are seen as criminals and you integrate them into society and not the way that we’ve tried to do it in the US in a sense by going and getting a license and picking one side of the other by providing the momentum and the marketability to move everything from the illicit side into the commercial side might be a bit of a pipe dream but I I think you’ll see the most significant percentage of transition in Morocco than you’ve seen anywhere else in the world and that’s why I see it this way what what would your advice be to somebody in the marijuana industry that feels threatened by hemp how do how do we work together or or how do we how do we Prosper together I like I said I think you just have to get over this surprise and I think people’s jaws drop when they hear it you mean to tell me that they can do this at a fraction of the cost that I have to do in this space and they can sell it anywhere that’s just not fair you just have to get over that think about what happened when Uber came into town and I don’t know if you know anything about the taxi industry and I know very little but I do know this that if you were a taxi driver in a particular City where you had to get a medallion think of New York City that Medallion was very expensive and you passed it down through your family through your friends you you that Medallion meant something imagine when Uber came into town and everybody with a car can all of a sudden register for Uber and The Medallion went from 10x to a fraction of of X in value it happened the same thing’s happening it’s basically when you eliminate the Monopoly associated with The Medallion or the state-based lure you have to realize that this is the way the Market’s going what about hotels they were always regulated specifically and now we can all rent an Airbnb anywhere we want at any time and even cities and states that try to limit that have difficulty because it’s not always always constitutional whether you can limit people’s ability to rent out their home my point is this is the way of the marketplace especially when you throw technology in so you have to stop with the but we put so much Blood Sweat and Tears to get here get over that that doesn’t matter you should be honored for that you should be proud of that you had the courage to do it and you have the fortitude to have gotten through it now you need to adapt and adopt and you have to adopt the new thinking and the new thinking is the Cannabis industry is not just one one aisle in the grocery store again when I went to MJ biscon a few weeks ago I guess in December uh many of us were there and there there this picture of Doom and Gloom the industry is at its lowest point is it that’s not what I’m seeing when I think of cannabis industry but I Define the Cannabis industry more broadly I’m looking at all the aisles in the grocery store not just one yes one of those aisles the dispensary system the retail chain for high THD products that’s State based it’s down right now and regulations don’t help but there is a way to get your mind around this notion that oh my God I can’t believe they’re doing this to oh my God I think we should look at how to integrate this because a cannabis company in the future will have a supply chain that is producing plants those plants will be used in a variety of different things from animal feed and seeds all the way down to canono production and they’ll have manufacturing and that same plant goes into the place and it’s can to be manufactured in different ways so it’s a commoditization effect of a plant that is B found to happen in fact it’s probably what Jack Harrer would have said he wanted to happen if he didn’t if he didn’t elim if he eliminate the Romanticism from his ideals you have to commoditize the plant to get it sold in as many places as as possible and that always means that you and I are going to have our choice of how we like to consume cannabinoids or cannabis whether it’s just because we like high protein seeds that are super food from the plant or whether it’s because we want a dab that is super concentrated and is going to send us off to the moon for a few hours so I think it’s just embracing a redefinition and an evolution and understanding that history is bound to repeat itself I couldn’t agree with you more that you it’s either adapt or die really and so there are states that have completely banned hemp altogether I think that’s is that that’s California right well California’s got a hemp program but they’ve effectively banned products for consumption and that was in effect and I know this because we were invol we’re involved in certain Lobby circles around the country that are somewhat influential that the marijuana sector got to the governor and said you want to do this because that’ll protect this and that may have been the knee-jerk reaction or the short-term thinking but it wasn’t exactly great thinking now there are some states that are going to be primarily blue states that will ban hemp derivatives and it becomes a slippery slope because then you’re banning all hemp consumables in a sense unless you’re carefully worded so yes some states will do that but what my experience has been particularly with Republicans in charge now at the federal level I think that if you go into those States and say look do you want to send this Revenue those jobs back to the black market because just if you ban hemp products for sale in that state doesn’t mean they’re not being sold in that state just means that they’re being produced elsewhere and brought in and sold in smoke shops in an unregulated fashion or maybe a ulated fashion or you’re simply creating a black market for those products cuz consumers are always going to find what they want and that’s the marketplace but yes some states have have banned it some states talk about banning these things Texas is a big one right now we have their Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick who’s very powerful saying that that we need to ban this I think it was the state of Ohio recently that also put that on the legislative agenda Missouri did that recently but guess what happened in Missouri in Missouri m and the Missouri cannabis Trade Organization I wrote an article about this got to got to the governor and said you got to ban this stuff because it’s competing with us you’re going to undercut our industry and guess what happened Missouri the home of anheiser bush sometime somewhere I imagine that Governor got a call from higher ups at anheiser Bush saying whoa alcohol sales are declining month over month year after year all over the country we don’t want to limit any ingredients into our products and quickly that position was reversed and the Attorney General took a position my point being is yes it’s going to be a dog fight state by state unless and until the federal government takes control but with the Republicans in charge and a perhaps a more pragmatic at least on this issue Republican party uh and Republican leadership I do believe we can get somewhere I think the Democrats to a certain extent were hung up on social justice and writing the wrongs of the past and I don’t malign those things those things are extraordinarily important but it it it never helped Advance the marijuana dispensary system or the marijuana sector in in this country um and even schedule 3 aside from the 280e impact I don’t know if it advances that either but kudos to the Biden Administration for moving in that direction and creating a a democratic policy balance there where I haven’t seen the paper but I I allegedly pardoning uh thousands of of people that had simple marijuana fences in jail and at the same time moving forward on cannabis policy reform and for the industry to sit back and say oh it needed to be descheduled not rescheduled that’s a legislative maneuver that is not an agency maneuver the agency is not going to take something no matter what the science says that produces an intoxicating effect and I don’t know if intoxicating is the word I’m just a lawyer I’m not a scientist but that’s the word I hear used a lot and then just say it’s not scheduled anymore unless they specifically move it to ttb like they did with alcohol and tobacco but that was a legislative maneuver so if we want Federal descheduling across the board you’re going to have to create room for cannaboids is ingredients and pharmaceutical products because they’re undoubtedly position for that and we want that to be honest with you I’m not so sure I want the pill that has the canabo in it versus the natural product but that’s my choice I don’t have to preclude that from somebody else from using a pill that’s generated by a pharmaceutical company that might have CBG in it in the future from a marijuana plant point being is all of this stuff needs to be sorted out we need to see what behavior is and I think that a couple more I don’t want to say Generations cycles of politicians is the right word Cycles I think you’ll start to see more and more favorable treatment think how far we’ve come in what 10 15 years I’ve been involved in this 15 to 17 years I can’t believe how far the debate has come where I was at a debate in in the University of Denver where I was teaching at the time Mitt Romney was was debating for the president when he was running years ago and somebody from the cannabis which was The Denver Post cannabis publication at the time said Mr Romney what do you plan to do about cannabis reform and he looked at him and scoffed and said ask me a real question he didn’t say that but that was the tone of it you can’t do that today you’ve got look what Harris did even Trump came out and and took a formal position you can’t Dodge the issue anymore and the next cycles and cycles of politicians are going to increasingly look I believe favorably over the plant and and see it whether it’s for for economic reasons social justice reasons or just for reform reasons and we’ll see more and more progress in that regard so I’m optimistic most people are not but I think you just got to zoom out a little bit and you just got to poke around I that this administra I’ve never had more hope with this Administration coming in with RFK and his stance and even Pam Bondi as an AG I know that she she had um a history with cannabis in Florida for whatever reasons but you know I think that things have turned around with her too at least she’s not at Jeff sessions like drug Warrior right we could have gone in that direction and sometimes AGS go in that direction because they they’re politically compelled to pick people but I think and some of the folks I work with they happen to be regulars at maral Lago and they involved in those discussions and with those people and there’s an enthusiasm and an energy that seems at least from my perspective to be very different from Republican administrations in the past where the f Focus really is on trying to shake up Washington and I don’t it doesn’t matter what you think about politics but isn’t shaking up Washington a good thing no matter what this whole drain the swamp thing that never happened and that’s an old what did happen they Shrunk the code of federal regulations by hundreds of thousands of pages nobody talks about that that’s good thing that’s reform and if it’s a little bit more overt now because he doesn’t have to worry about running again and it’s a little bit more over the top yes some things that we like are going to be t or we feel like we need are going to be taken away probably environmental oversight and regulations but guess what those are agency functions under the executive branch that if and or when the next Democrat Administration is in place they can quite easily reinstall that or if there’s the the pendulum swings back towards Democrat policies then they’ll control Congress and be able to get something passed in that direction but I see the focus being less about restricting individual behavior and more about let’s reform the government and give every bet put some more money in people’s pockets and just move on with it and maybe that’s pie in the sky and again I’m not a political person but that’s the way I see it I there’s a lot of optimism and you know we’ll wait and see Bob Before I Let You Go how can our listeners find you uh it’s it’s easy to find me I’m my my website Bob hob.com my email is bobbob hob.com or gps. Global is our consulting firm greenbridge proven strategies thank you so much for coming on I’ve learned so much and and we got to have you back on there’s a the Cannabis industry one year I feel like 10 years H 10 years of news happen in a year so please we got to have you back and you know you you’re there’s probably a lot that our listeners can learn on what’s happening globally in the global market I think it’s so critical think about about this by the way just one last note the United Nations all right remember in November of 2020 during covid the United Nations elected to order their classification of marijuana and allow for the concept of medical marijuana to be a thing now they’re in the process through the committee on narcotic drugs and I’ve appeared in front of these agencies before these subcommittees they’re moving towards creating regulations that do that what was the reason that this happened the only reason it happened in November 2020 is because the US finally decided to vote for it because the US is so powerful and influence in that regard my point being is this if the US externally is pushing for cannabis reform by and through the United Nations whether that’s done through our president or not it’s done through the state department and others uh and the ambassador to the UN so forth and so on that policy change will come back to roost in the United States ultimately but not until the politicians have had a chance to have enough to use it as election day fodder over the next couple of Cycles we just have to look at it like a television show like it is House of Cards because it is and we have to understand that as a practical matter the US has endorsed cannabis reform globally by and through the United Nations and that movement is happening slowly but it’s surely happening thanks for listening to the kayak cast podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcast stop or visit our website to access the full Archive of episodes from the show
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